Those grapes are mighty sour

From Gary Pearce:

A friend who supported Richard Moore in the primary said last week he’s disappointed that Moore hasn’t done more for Bev Perdue.

Hasn't done more? Hmmmm. Other than an anemic endorsement months ago, I'd say Richard Moore hasn't done anything.


As usual, thanks to Ed Cone

for digging this one up. I don't generally read Talking About Politics because it requires acknowledging the existence of Carter Wrenn.

Doubts about Dole?

That's a shame, James

Because Carter Wrenn, with whom I adamantly disagree 95% of the time, is extremely bright and knowledgeable, and you could learn from reading him.

As for Richard Moore, he may indeed be a "mite" sour on Beverly, but consider also that he might be in the position of not wanting to lie just for the sake of the party.

I think he may have some very good reasons for being reluctant to endorse Ms. Perdue, and suspect that this is well understood by a lot of longtime, loyal Democratic party activists and supporters.

And your point would be?

First, I don't know what innuendo you mean, but you attacked Moore and I defended him. What did you expect? And what was your purpose for resurrecting the issue? Do you believe that your post will have a positive effect for Perdue?

Secondly, No, I don't know more about what Richard Moore thinks than he does. He said what he said, and I get the sense that if he could bring himself to say more he would have. If that changes and he stumps for her, I respect his decision. If he can't, well, I respect that decision, too, as do a lot of other people who care deeply about this party and this state, who have invested their energies into trying to make it a better party and a better state and who have been at it for a long, long time.

Third, No, I don't make sh*t up. Never have, and never will. Seems to me that you're over-reacting and over-personalizing quite a bit here.

Carter Wrenn

Carter Wrenn has irritated me plenty, and while people can certainly argue who is bad and who is badder, I'd have to say I think the comparision to Karl Rove wouldn't hold up under close scrutiny.

In any case, painting people in black and white and marking 'em off in bold lines does everyone a disservice. It's a foolish way of thinking, and leads a person to making unwarranted assumptions about others based upon who they may have taken tea with. Reminds me of the efforts the GOP is engaged in to damn Obama by various associations.

I don't think you would lose anything essential in your soul by opening up to the possibilty that people who hold radically different ideas from you might have something to teach you.

Wrenn/Rove is not okay, but Rove/Obama is?

You're saying it is not okay to compare two right-wing strategists who have done and said anything it takes to defeat Democrats, but you can compare what James said to the Obama haters?

"You could say, 'Look, is this guy, Laden, really the bad guy that's depicted?' Most of us have never heard of him before." John McCain, following Clinton's strikes on al Qaeda camps

Jesus Swept ticked me off. Too short. I loved the characters and then POOF it was over.

Pease reread, Robert.

No, Robert, I didn't say that it is not ok to compare Rove and Wrenn. I think it's a very obvious point of comparision.

I did say that I disagreed that the comparison would hold up under scrutiny, but again, acknowledged that others could certainly argue over who was bad and who was badder.

Is that so hard to get or were you just in a hurry to jump in and failed to read carefully?

Yes, I do think that when you start to paint people in black and white based uopn whom they support or hang out with politically, you run the risk of over-generalizing and giving into unwarranted assumptions.

That is exactly what the GOP is doing to Obama -- or trying to do -- and I was definitely reminded of that by James' remarks about Wrenn. To suggest that by reading Wrenn's blog one could actually become tainted by the evil some would ascribe to him is a little much, and I believe, based upon other of James' remarks, that the intent was to suggest that since I do read the blog, I must be a little evil myself. This is consistent with earlier remarks to the effect that I am in bed with the enemy because I disagree with James and others that attacking Womble Carlysle is a desirable or effective means of attacking Blackwater.

It's also a little difficult to read James' remarks in the most positive of all possible lights when he laces them with invective, such as accusing me of making up "shit." GO figure that I would take the tone amiss.

You asked.


There is NO comparison to be made between the "Black Hand" ad and saying McCain had an illegitimate biracial baby. None at all.

What does Carter Wrenn have to teach anyone? How to use racism to win elections? Thats a lesson I would rather not learn thank you very much.

"Keep the Faith"

"Keep the Faith"

work on that reading

Again, I did not say there was no comparision nor any room for comparison. How about rereading?

As for what Carter Wrenn has to teach you -- perhaps nothing at all. I'm sure you'll get through life just fine without reading anything by Carter or anyone else you don't like or think ill of.

But it's kind of silly for you or anyone to suggest that racism or its practice is what one stands to gain from the blog, and it's a little puzzling to me that you could have read any of my comments and still think, on the basis of my having recommended the blog, that I am practicing or condoning racism.

I did

Jesus but this is getting old.

I'd have to say I think the comparision to Karl Rove wouldn't hold up under close scrutiny.

Also, try to do a little less projecting. I wasn't calling you a racist. I simply said that Carter Wrenn used racism to win elections, and that I am not interested in advice from someone who won that way.

"Keep the Faith"

"Keep the Faith"


Close scrutiny would require more than the 'hands' commercial.

And I appreciate your saying that you were not calling me a racist.

I incorrectly inferred that when you suggested that the only thing to be gained from the blog is lessons on how to be a racist, you might have been implying that someone who reads it does so only for that purpose.

Glad to know that you don't think Laura Leslie, Jack Betts, and Gary Pearce are trying to learn how to be racists, since the two former speak highly of the blog and the latter co-writes it.


2 of those names are Journalists. They would be doing themselves a disservice if they didn't read it. But they (presumably) aren't reading it to learn something. They are doing it to do their jobs better.

So the fact that they speak highly of it has absolutely zero impact on me saying that I don't want to learn what Carter Wrenn has to teach.

"Keep the Faith"

"Keep the Faith"

Yes, BlueSouth

They are respected journalists, and both of them have recommended and praised the blog.

Of course it's up to each individual reader to evaluate their recommendations.

Good reason

I think, again, that this is not about hurt feelings. I think this is a matter that goes far beyond that, and that a lot of people who are deeply concerned about what is best for the PEOPLE of this state understand perfectly well why he can't bring himself to do more for Ms. Perdue.


If him not helping Perdue means McCrory wins then anyone concerned with people and not with corporations would be appalled.

And yes, that is an attack on you and on him. He ran a dirty primary and his refusal to help beat McCrory displays an utter lack of concern for the people of this state. I had a much higher opinion of him than that a year ago.

"Keep the Faith"

"Keep the Faith"

I care quite a bit

It seems to me that Perdue's problems in this race have not so much to do with Moore, a bit to do with the scandals the Democrats have been working to live down, and quite a lot to do with who her opponent is and how she has performed in the race.

As for attacking Moore and attacking me, that's fine. I think it's kind of silly, but if it makes you feel better, have at it. It isn't helping Perdue, though, and this thread isn't helping her either, so, again, I ask why it was started -- what it was intended to accomplish.

I do understand that you feel his failure to help Perdue means he doesn't care about the state, but I know that isn't true. Not by a long shot.

Moore's record speaks for itself, but since you don't know me or my record, I'll just say that I care very deeply, have worked hard and will continue to work hard for our party.

Joe Sinsheimer cared, too, though everyone was ready to brand him a traitor for bringing Jim Black down. Many could and did argue that what he did to Black was destructive of the party, but eventually I think more people came to understand that Joe Sinsenheimer was and is one of the best assets the Democratic Party has.

Laying it Out

Pat McCrory is a horrible choice for governor. Richard Moore is choosing to put himself above the people of this state by doing absolutely nothing to make sure that McCrory loses.

Again. He is putting himself above the PEOPLE of this state by not supporting Bev Perdue. He has 3 weeks to put ego aside and help make sure McCrory doesnt win. Thats it. There is no more. I don't care what your opinion of whether he cares or not is. Its obvious he doesn't care, because if he did care he would be helping to defeat McCrory.

"Keep the Faith"

"Keep the Faith"

Oh for heaven's sake

That's absurd.

Richard Moore is entitled to act according to his conscience, as are all the other people who are Democrats who aren't working for Perdue.

If ego is the only thing stopping him, what is stopping so many other party leaders from working to help her? Do they not care for the state either?

How can you be so sure that you know what is in the experiences or consciences of Moore and so many other people that you can definitively condemn the choice not to work for Perdue?

In any case, if Perdue loses this election it isn't because of Moore.

Your response is absurd.

This is the equivalent of not campaigning for Gore in 2000 because you didn't like him. Who cares, if you are a Democrat and don't support the candidate then you are to blame for the damage that is done by the "other".

"You could say, 'Look, is this guy, Laden, really the bad guy that's depicted?' Most of us have never heard of him before." John McCain, following Clinton's strikes on al Qaeda camps

Jesus Swept ticked me off. Too short. I loved the characters and then POOF it was over.

Absurdity, Robert

I've had to come back and edit this response. I told myself I wasn't going to get snarly.

The Democrats have to do more than nominate a warm body. We ought to assume that voters do more than look at the party designation when voting.

Under your reasoning, Robert, nothing a person knows or thinks about this candidate and his or her record matters because the alternative is so dire.

What if some of us take seriously the idea that the Democrats need to clean up their act? Is it not conceivable that some of us who care very deeply (I'm getting a little tired of the implication that whoever isn't in lock-step here is uncaring or disloyal) believe that a certain candidate is not only NOT going to clean things up but is actually part of the problem?

Joe Sinsheimer took a risk when he worked to unseat Jim Black. A lot of Democrats were angry at him for doing so at the time. Yet now I think most have come to realize that he did the party a favor. There's no question that the scandals of the Democrats have hurt the party and may cost us in the election. Whose fault is that?

If I work for a candidate whom I believe to be part of the party's problem, I think I share in the blame for the failure of this party to reform.

I haven't used this blog to accuse you or James or BlueSouth or anyone else of being uncaring or irresponsible for your positions, but by your posts one would think I were advocating for the downfall of all our hopes and dreams. Get a grip.

I have, since the primary, said very little about the gubernatorial election. But here comes a post fairly late in the season bashing Richard Moore. The intent of the post remains unclear.

The "sour grapes" post triggered a discussion that highlights party division, resurrects feelings of anger all around, and certainly does nothing to help Perdue. And Richard Moore, who has been silent, is the one being castigated for "sour grapes?" He did what he was asked to do and nothing more. It is the failure to respect his decision that is "sour grapes," folks.

If Perdue doesn't win this election and you are content to blame Richard Moore or any other Democrat who didn't work for her instead of taking a hard look at the race and the candidate herself, you will have missed an important wake up call for the Democratic Party in NC.

Apples and Watermelons.

What the hell does Joe Sinsheimer and Jim Black have to do with it? From what I remember Joe and Jim were both Democrats. I have no problem with a Democrat taking on a Democrat, that is the whole point of the system and you might remember I favored almost NONE of our current crop of candidates in the primary. That said, at this point in our history it is Us vs. Them as declared by the Republicans during the last 28 years. Richard Moore is willing to risk putting our state in the hands of the Republican Party for 4 years because he doesn't like Bev Perdue, or he's upset he lost to Bev Perdue. Whatever the reason, he is not speaking out for Bev Perdue.

Does he not care about Medicaid, because McCrory will cut it.
Does he not care about Smart Start, More at Four and other programs to help our children, because McCrory will cut them.
Does he not care about valuing public schools, because McCrory will cut their funding in favor of vouchers.
Does he not care about Labor, because McCrory will gut any proposed changes that help Labor.
Does he not care about the environment, because McCrory is funded by the Drill, Baby, Drill crowd.

The point of this post is that a very popular state figure, who ran against our candidate in the primary, is now sitting by quietly. The race is tight, Richard Moore is being used against Perdue in ads and on web sites. Where is he?

"You could say, 'Look, is this guy, Laden, really the bad guy that's depicted?' Most of us have never heard of him before." John McCain, following Clinton's strikes on al Qaeda camps

Jesus Swept ticked me off. Too short. I loved the characters and then POOF it was over.

This is getting old

How will Pat McCrory winning help anyone who is a Democrat?

"Keep the Faith"

"Keep the Faith"

You don't understand?

You must not have voted for Nader in 2000.

"You could say, 'Look, is this guy, Laden, really the bad guy that's depicted?' Most of us have never heard of him before." John McCain, following Clinton's strikes on al Qaeda camps

Jesus Swept ticked me off. Too short. I loved the characters and then POOF it was over.

Wake up

And realize that some people don't think Perdue is going to help Democrats restore the integrity of the party and reform state government.

Sorry you can't figure it out, but if I were unable to grasp a person's argument, I don't think I'd be whining about my own cluelessness while complaining about how long the thread is.

Fuck that. You wake up

Pat McCrory is HORRIBLE. I dont give two shits whether you like Perdue or think she is good or bad. I really don't.

Pat McCrory is against everything that you claim to stand for. Everything. And if he was for something you believe in 5 years ago he is against it now. If you think Perdue is corrupt McCrory would make her look like Mother Theresa.

PS- Who gives a shit how long a thread gets? The only reason it got this long is because you are too thick to realize that Richard Moore has a responsibility to the people of this state to make sure that the wrong person is not let into the governor's mansion to destroy this state.

"Keep the Faith"

"Keep the Faith"

the self-control of a three year old

McCrory also has the self-control of a three year old, I can't wait until they start showing some of the video of McCrory acting out.

Probably wouldn't be the worst thing in the world if we kept the curse words out of the subject lines.

- - - - -
McCain - The Third Bush Term

Let's look at some of those evil things

that Carter Wrenn has said on his blog []

For example, in a post called "Killing Time," (which also deals with the presidential race) Wrenn said this about the gubernatorial race (and I have permission to quote):

Bev Perdue only needs a field goal to catch Pat McCrory but McCrory just keeps methodically running the ball up the middle and getting first downs and he doesn’t look likely to fumble.

Perdue’s folks have one big problem: Perdue. Her campaign’s like a blockbuster movie with a star who can’t act. Bev Perdue’s come-on is just too sweet and too cute and the sooner they get her off their ads and off the air the better it will be for them.

They also have one big plus: Money. They’re going to, or ought to, be able to outspend McCrory by a couple of million dollars. That’s enough to pay for one of those ‘shock and awe’ political attacks.

And they may have one other plus: If, heaven forbid, the Democratic stars align and Obama wins North Carolina and Hagan wins then it’s going to be hard to see Perdue biting the dust – but, then again, who ever expected to see Obama with a chance to beat McCain here or Kay Hagan leading Liddy Dole?

You can agree or disagree, but I don't think his opinion is without merit and suspect that most of North Carolina's political pundits agree with this analysis.

Dont care

I don't care what he has or hasnt said on his blog. I will start reading him when I start reading a blog written by David Duke.

"Keep the Faith"

"Keep the Faith"

My opinion

I do see something similiar to 1984 and that has been a whisper campaign implying that Beverly Pudue is a racisit. I heard the samething in 1984 against Rufus Edminstien. In 1984, Rufus carried the black vote at a rate equal to most other Democratic Party candidates, but in what a good friend of mine calls a segment of the white Democrats called the "wine and cheese crowd" many of them cast votes for Martin in 1984. These "wine and cheese" in Charlotte are the kind of Democrats who have crossed over and voted for McCrory in his mayor runs, which in 2003 and 2005 may have provided him his victory. This is a statewide group of Democrasts in which McCrory is targeting and they were the same Democrats who were likely to back Moore in the primary. As far as I know Moore is not part of Purdue's smear campaign and and while a better endosement may help, I think Purdue would be better to emphasis her NRA endorsments and McCrory use of the stop light camera's which were very unpopular in Charlotte and would be state wide and something to this day McCrory swears he was right and the rest of us were wrong.

Very interesting

I've been pretty close to a lot of the players and I haven't heard one whisper or even suggestion that she is a racist or a bigot of any sort.

Not one.

Again, I'm mystified by what was supposed to be accomplished by starting this thread. I don't think it's helping Perdue any, nor do I think it's helping the party. What's the goal?

Well I have and I am not the only one

Of course I do not know who you are close to, but I would suggest you speak to some veterans of Rufus's organazation, I have several friends who are in that group, most of which backed Purdue in the primary. And where the ones who told me this was going on again. Do some research on it or don't if you choose not to believe it that is your choice. But I think it would be to your advantage to look and see what you find.

Will do, Moderate

It does surprise me, though, that I haven't heard it before now.

The other straw in the wind

I'm sure you saw this, Bru:

The McCrory campaign says they are getting support from a lot of former Moore people.

Which (of course) they would say even if they didn't have a single former Moore supporter. ;)

My answer (it may not be the same as James', but it probably is) to your question:

I'm mystified by what was supposed to be accomplished by starting this thread.

is: this race is way too close for Richard Moore to remain aloof. In addition to the probability that some Moore supporters may be harboring a PUMA-like anger towards Perdue, you also have the opposition using Moore's pre-primary anti-Perdue stuff in their campaign right now.

As far as the anger thing, there may not be much Richard can do about that, especially this late in the game. But him being aloof about the use of his former web page stuff can almost be construed as a tacit approval. It's almost as if Richard Moore is saying it doesn't really matter which one wins. But it does, very much so.

I don't mean this to sound like a lecture, and you can ignore the following if you want to, but Pat McCrory as Governor would be horrible for this state.

First and foremost, our state is already an environmental nightmare, and a big part of that can be directly attributed to coal-fired power plants. With McCrory at the helm, all the success we've had holding back Cliffside will be old news as that nightmare and others are brought online, with probably a couple of 10 billion-dollar nuke plants to go with them. We can also probably expect a big sell-off of state and Federal lands to private developers, not to mention a few scattered Mt. Trashmores.

State agencies responsible for providing services to the less fortunate could expect their already thin ranks to be thinned even more by budget cuts and/or privatization measures, which he has vigorously pursued in Charlotte. And I would imagine McCrory would love to push state-sponsored health care plans completely into the private sector, leaving tens of thousands that are currently covered without insurance.

I could go on, but I think you get my point. Even working from the premise that Perdue represents "more of the same" or "status quo" or whatever, a McCrory victory would set our state back by decades. Unfortunately, I'm afraid people won't realize that until they see it actually happen.

I've never heard anything similar.

But, I wouldn't put it past Pat's type of people to spread such a rumor.

"You could say, 'Look, is this guy, Laden, really the bad guy that's depicted?' Most of us have never heard of him before." John McCain, following Clinton's strikes on al Qaeda camps

Jesus Swept ticked me off. Too short. I loved the characters and then POOF it was over.

Not saying you're wrong, Moderate, but

I don't think any of the crowds I've dealt with have heard this rumor. Granted, the folks I've been around are pretty mainstream, and this is not the kind of subject that necessarily pops out at any given fundraiser, but I can't help thinking I'd have heard a smidgen of it. Is it possible that you're recalling the charges flying back and forth between the candidates in the primary?

I can see why it would be desirable for Perdue's opposition to paint her that way, since she stands to gain quite a bit from Obama's shirt-tails, but actually pulling off this kind of whisper campaign would be hard. I think it would have more potential for backfiring on the spreader than it would for harming Perdue's campaign. People just aren't that stupid.

It is the kind of rumor that needs to be attached to an issue -- and I can't think of any issue that leaves Perdue vulnerable to that kind of attack. If anything it would be more likely to stick to McCrory than Perdue because of their (real or perceived) differences on the landfill issue. Landfill sitings often provoke "social justice" concerns because of the relative lack of empowerment that people living in the targeted areas have compared to those in more affluent communities.

well keep listening

Maybe you will hear something, but it may have something to with the fact that Purdue was a legislature from a rural county in the east where racial tensions are high, and McCrory hails from a white collar section of an area which things are different and this could be some form of snobbery. But I am specualting all I know is I have heard this campaign before and it happend in 1984 and the folks who alerted me to this have a good track record.

No Moore

All I know is that, regardless of whether or not Perdue wins, Richard Moore better not come to me again asking for my vote.

Hope he didn't have his eye on a run for Burr's Senate seat.

There are people in every time and every land who want to stop history in its tracks. They fear the future, mistrust the present, and invoke the security of the comfortable past which, in fact, never existed. - Robert F. Kennedy

There are people in every time and every land who want to stop history in its tracks. They fear the future, mistrust the present, and invoke the security of the comfortable past which, in fact, never existed. - Robert F. Kennedy

The Grapes of Wrath

Here we go. When it looks like Bev may not win the first thing to do is find someone to blame. How about Richard Moore. Moore endorsed Bev. His support of Bev is about what support the Clintons have given Obama. And Obama is waxing McCain. The problem lies with Bev's campaign, not with the lack of support from Moore. Bev was annointed and won the right to run for her party. I voted for Moore. And now I will vote for Perdue. Am I mad? No. I voted for Hillary. Am I mad? No. I will vote for Perdue and Obama.

So let's get off blaming Moore if Perdue does not win. Obama is doing it without Hillary. Perdue has not run a campaign that will be held out as among the best. I think that she will win on Obama's coattails.

How about blame Bev's campaign and those supporters of hers who made sure she defeated Moore. Seems to me the criticism of Moore has been authored by the same punk-ass cheerleaders who got Perdue this far. Maybe they should work harder for Bev since the election is not over yet. Then they can beat up Moore. Or maybe they are mad that Moore did not show up for the debates in Bev's place.

I'm not really interested in getting into this thread...

But if we are using the "Hillary" analogy, let's get it right. This is what Sen. Clinton has done for the Obama-Biden campaign (and certainly this isn't all of it):

Barnstorming the Keystone State: Hillary Clinton kicks off a two-day swing through Pennsylvania this Sunday, October 12. First stop: “Obama for America” rally in Scranton, PA with President Clinton and Senator Joe and Jill Biden. Monday, Hillary hosts a “Conversation with Working Families” with congressional candidate Allyson Schwartz followed by another rally for Obama-Biden in Philadelphia.

As of this week, Hillary has headlined more than 50 events and has raised more than $10 million dollars for Obama-Biden.

On a call today with Philadelphia Mayor Michael Nutter and NY Assemblywoman Ro Ann Destito, Hillary invited her supporters to sign up for Hillary Sent Me! (HSM) in the Keystone State this weekend.

For those interested in joining HSM in Pennsylvania this weekend, email

To learn more about HSM in the coming weeks, please go to:

To summarize: Massive fundraising, massive campaign stops, and creating an organization to ensure her supporters volunteer for the campaign.

I would submit the analogy doesn't fit.

Phillip Hunter Gilfus

I submit that you missed the analogy

This is rich. You take an aspect of the analogy that is challengeable so you can ignore the larger point, which is less about primary loser's zeal in helping the primary winner than it is about the VOTER'S POINT OF VIEW.

How about addressing the main issue? How about acknowledging that Perdue's lousy campaign is Perdue's fault, not Richard Moore's.

I agree with "Reasonably Honest" that Perdue is going to win this election based on Obama's coat-tails. It's ironic, given her reticence (to say the least) to appear in public with him, but yeah, she's going to win because of Obama.

So the people positioning themselves to blame Moore for Perdue's loss (which reminds me of the GOPers trying to set up ACORN fraud as an explanation for Obama's win) can perhaps take a few breaths and think more clearly about how elections are won and lost.

Calm down and take a moment...

As you saw from my title, I'm not interested in this thread. I was correcting the statement about how much Sen. Clinton has done in the general election campaign.

C'mon people, just b/c it's the InterWeb doesn't give permission for everyone to jump down everyone's throat. Don't read anymore than what someone posts.

And just b/c I can never get enough:

Phillip Hunter Gilfus

Grapes rotting on the vine

Seems to me the criticism of Moore has been authored by the same punk-ass cheerleaders who got Perdue this far.

Who are you referring to with this comment? Gary Pearce? James Protzman? Perdue supporters in general? Males who supported a woman over a man for office? In case you really didn't know what punk-ass means, it's an insult to heterosexual men, women and gay people, so keep that shit to yourself if you don't mind.