Yes, Virginia. You can keep your damn noise.

It looks like Liddy Dole's sweetheart relationship with Senator John Warner is going down the toilet, just like her relationship with the rest of North Carolina. After she tried to sell out our state to the noise of Navy jets, We the People said "No way," and all hell broke loose.

Now John-John is miffed because "politics" got in the way of his deal with our devil. Following a meeting in Virginia about possible sites for their OLF, Warner had this to say:

Afterward, Warner obliquely criticized Virginia’s southern neighbor.

When Navy leaders decided years ago to locate the landing field in North Carolina, “there was a measure of disappointment in the state, but we saluted and marched off,” Warner said. “Now, all of a sudden, politics has intervened and all of this effort by the Navy, apparently, is going to end in being forced out.”

Warner said it was premature to talk about the future of two squadrons of Navy F/A-18 Super Hornet slated to be based at Cherry Point Marine Corps Air Station in North Carolina. The expected arrival of those squadrons was part of the Navy’s rationale for choosing Washington County, which is about halfway between Oceana and Cherry Point.

If the landing field is built in Virginia, should those squadrons and their estimated $30 million economic impact move north as well? “Let’s settled first with the outlying landing field,” Warner said.

“The underlying thing I hope is a determining factor is that Virginia has a history going way back to World War I of working with the U.S. military and keeping its word.”

With all due respect, Senator Warner (and not much is due), screw you and the high-horse you rode in on. North Carolina pays every god-damned day for your sins in supporting Bush's War in Iraq. And the fact is, Liddy Dole DOESN'T SPEAK FOR NORTH CAROLINA in any way shape or form. You made your deal with the wrong person, sucker.

So keep your $30 million in economic incentives. That's nothing but chickenfeed to us. Unless you can cough up ten times that amount for some clean high tech jobs, we're not interested in your stinking jet-fuel-soaked money.

Comments

Okay Men! Here comes the Monitor! Admiral John!

Now, all of a sudden, politics has intervened and all of this effort by the Navy, apparently, is going to end in being forced out.”* Liz Taylor former 13 th husband

Wait until he finds out that his prize military tourist ship [The Yahoo] in Norfolk habor is sunk by a underwater team of farmers from North Carolina.

Additional OLF stories

It is funny but it seems that some of the smaller papers and TV stations have more to say about the OLF than does the Pilot.

In Hampton Roads, the Daily Press has a detailed story on Virginia's offerings along with a link to the official site. There you can actually find the links to the 2 PDF's filled with charts and maps about their proposal.

WVEC has a report that makes it clear that Virginians who could be affected are not real happy about that either.

Jumping the gun on the whole lot was the New Bern Sun Journal. Weighing in with apparent inside info they score an interview with a Navy spokesman where we learn that this is all just "old hat".

Brown said all of the sites being suggested by both states now were among 20 originally considered by the Navy for the practice landing field. The field needs a dark and remote location to simulate landing on an aircraft carrier. The Navy needs to buy at least 2,000 acres for the landing strip and to buy outright or get easements on 30,000 acres for buffer.

We also learn that those 10 to 12 squadrons going to Oceana really wont be. According to this story

The Navy wants the site to be about equidistant from Naval Air Station Oceana in Virginia Beach, Va., where eight F/A-18 Super Hornet squadrons will be based, and Cherry Point, expected to have two squadrons.

See, all that noise you were expecting is going to be a lot less.

In order to emphasize that point they then illustrate the story using a picture of a Harrier. That right: a Harrier not a Super Hornet.

Then again, maybe they are writing about something else. Duh.

Reality Based Training -

I am not now, nor have I ever been in the Navy but ... I understand pilots, aircraft, and training.

That said:

The field needs a dark and remote location to simulate landing on an aircraft carrier.

Then go practice on a carrier. Before you freak, parm - Is it true or not true that those boys know how to fly before they ever attempt the first carrier landing?

It doesn't matter if your 'first time' is the deck of a ship or a patch of dirt - you fuck up the first time - there won't be a second time without a healthy dose of grace.

Reality Based Training - get with the program.

I am so heartily sick of the lies - all of them - just keep the damn planes. Two squadrons won't do much for NC - don't let the $$ dollar signs $$ dazzle your eyes. When you do the math - you'll find out North Carolina ends up in the red while Virginia scoops up the cash.

Just Say No to Bad Ideas.
>''

It is true that these guys know how to fly

before they get to the fleet squadron. But there is more.

The Fleet Readyness Squadron or RAG is also stationed at Oceana. This squadron's primary purpose is to train the new pilot on the special charicteristics of that specific plane. The new pilot goes from initial flight schools where they are told, OK, you are going to now fly the XXX plane. In this case, the Hornet. The pilot goes to the RAG where he gets familirization flights etc. Does a whole sylibus of actions with that plane.

At some point, he must qualify to land on a carrier. So he must perform a bunch of FCLP (fleet carrier landing practices) before he goes to the ship. At this point, he is not ready or qualified to land on a carrier. It would not be good for him or the folks on the carrier for him to try to land for the first time on a carrier with no FCLP landings on an OLF or the home field.

Many of the flights performed at the OLF is these guys (RAG guys) practicing and trying to qualify for the opportunity to fly to the carrier and try to qualify actually landing on the carrier.

Also, the "experinced" pilots must practice or refresh their carrier approach pattern. While I have not flown or landed via a plane on a carrier, I have lived on a carrier for 5 years. That 1000 foot ship does bounce around etc. Even old hands need to refresh what they are about to do.

A pilot making an approach onto a carrier must throw out a lot of things most other pilots truely use. They have to trust this thing called a "meatball". It is a light system that moves around and gives the pilot feedback on how he is flying toward the touchdown point.

A pilot MUST fly this meatball to safely get his plane on the deck of a carrier.

The pilot should/must be watching this light from about 3/4 miles out till he touches the deck with his wheels. All actions are done as a result of this light system, to include rudder, stick power, glide slope adjustments. He should not be looking at the deck or his instruments, but this light.

These FCLP practices are designed to get him looking at these lights.

With that said, he should be focused on these lights and not the horizon. He can do this anywhere because the lights are what he must fly by. So having a walmart sign off in the horizon should not hamper him, nor should a false horizon based on street lights etc. Fentress has had these lights for many many years and an OLF was never required before.

A close example of what these guys are doing is get on a highway and have a friend driving to your left. ONLY look at door handle of his car right next to you and drive down the road at 55 or what ever speed your friend does. You must speed up and slow down solely based on where you are in relationship to that door knob. That door knob is your meatball. Now think about doing something similar to that but in a multimillion dollar plane flying at 130KTs desending from 600 feet to ground. I truely do not advocate placing a carrier at sea for these guys to practice on without first getting some practice in on an OLF or at the main airfield. That is why a Navy master jet base MUST have a parrellel runway, to perform FCLP practices. These pilots are performing FCLPs at the home field as well as the OLF. They are constantly doing carrier based landings all the time.

If this pilot is truely doing what an Officer of the Navy is suppose to be doing, practicing, this light polution should not effect him. Also, he is retraining his hand,eye, meatball corridation and he knows this is just practice.

Every recovery is suppose to be flown as if he is coming onboard a carrier. Thus EVERY flight ends with at least one FCLP recovery. Plenty of practice and much of this is done at Oceana in a light polution environment. POOOOF, there goes the Navys light arguement.

I will acknowledge that the Navy needs an OLF to augment the primary homebase that the planes are stationed at. Oceana has this OLF in Fentress and the Navy states to many times that Fentress will continue to be utilized for FCLP training (over 50 times in the FEIS). If its good enough to be used at all, it is good enough for all practices. The Navy has also stated to many times that the Fentress/Oceana complex can do the job (same 50 times). This is what everyone needs to focus on. This is why the Navy will always state that an OLF is not required to support the military mission at Oceana for any plane load out that includes Oceana. This is what the FEIS pg 12-1 states.

NO OLF, NO OLF, NO OLF

I Hear Ya, parm -

I will acknowledge that the Navy needs an OLF to augment the primary homebase that the planes are stationed at.

I do know there is a difference between the 'Navy guys' and 'The Air Force guys' that I'm familiar with. You can tell by their landings - oh, yes... it's true. The AF guys are used to plenty of room to land and their landings are smooth as silk.... The Navy guys land >whump>right now

But they do know how to fly before they try carriers. That is Truth.

Oceana has this OLF in Fentress and the Navy states to many times that Fentress will continue to be utilized for FCLP training

(over 50 times in the FEIS). If its good enough to be used at all, it is good enough for all practices.

Hey - is it NC's fault they messed up around Fentress and let the
$$ developers $$ have their way around the countryside?

I don't think so ...

I still say they don't need 50 square miles of our dirt.

You are right

They do not need 50 sq miles of dirt in NC.

The Navy failed and is still failing around Oceana and Fentress. Even if they get restrictive easements around these two sites, a plane is going to crash and kill someone. Probably a low-income person who is renting the house this plane is going to crash into. The encroachment is just to high around Oceana. That is what 2005 BRAC identified as a problem. The Navy is doing nothing about this except to try to get an OLF in our state. Does not seem like the Navy will manage this property correctly if the history of Naval air for the last 30 years is reviewed. They will screw this land up.

I'm not a fan of bumperstickers

but I'd put this one on my car:

Liddy Dole DOESN'T SPEAK FOR NORTH CAROLINA

You go Anglico!

Yeah, John Warner has behaved so honorably manipulating his own string of politics...I commend him on the noble way he has silently stood by and watched North Carolinians crawl in dirt to save their land. The King and his cohorts have known all along that Virginia was getting the gravy while we got the trash.

What have we been saying all along? North Carolina will never see those two squadrons at Cherry Point.

At least ...

At least Dole is starting to wake up on a few military issues. Here's one she finally stepped up on today (it's from a press release from her office).

“Six months ago, after hearing testimony from our commanders in the field, I supported a strategy set forth by General Patraeus that called for an additional 28,500 U.S. troops in Iraq to provide security and restore order, particularly in and around Baghdad and Al Anbar province.. The objective was to go on the offensive against insurgents and to provide the Iraqi government a chance to meet political, legislative and security benchmarks that are critical to establishing stability and peace.

“The troop surge was completed just a couple weeks ago, so it is too early to declare the ultimate success or failure of this strategy. That said, preliminary details about the administration’s interim report on Iraq, due on July 15, indicate that the Iraqi government has failed to meet these benchmarks.

“Simply put, our troops have been doing a great job, but the Iraqi government has not. Our commitment in Iraq is not indefinite, nor should the Iraqi government perceive it to be. It is my firm hope and belief that we can start bringing our troops home in 2008.”

In truth, I'm fairly nonpartisan, but Republicans have long been asleep at the wheel with Iraq.

It's about time she stepped up.

Of course, she's only doing it as supporting the Iraq war is becoming politically untenable.

--Gideon

It's good to have a non-partisan amongst us

but I daresay the R's have been asleep at the wheel on more than Iraq. I won't get started on the long list of transgressions - you know them as well as I do.

The Dems have been guilty of malfeasance in the past as well, but I've never seen anything even remotely rising to the level of abuse and corruption that have occurred over the past six years in Washington.

And I'm an old man who's seen a lot.

A

PS And for those who say NC Dems are the worst of the worst, I say phooey. Yes there have been some terrible actors and patterns of abuse, but at least there's been some semblance of governing. With Rs in charge we'd have the worst of all worlds.

There's always ...

... good mixed in with the bad.

--Gideon

Seems like this is going to be the song

they're going to sing.

Simply put, our troops have been doing a great job, but the Iraqi government has not

So, you see, it's not our fault, it's that damn Iraqi government (that we set up) who can't stop the war (that we started).

They still can't accept the blame for anything. That's not stepping up.

You are right.

You are right, but this isn't exactly the best timing for Dole to be sounding the retreat horns. Her poll numbers still aren't that hot for an incumbent and she's going to need Republican support to win if Democrats ever manage to find a candidate.

And a real cynic would simply call this vote pandering.

--Gideon

So would a realist.

n/t

Excuse Me, John

When Navy leaders decided years ago to locate the landing field in North Carolina, “there was a measure of disappointment in the state, but we saluted and marched off,” Warner said. “Now, all of a sudden, politics has intervened and all of this effort by the Navy, apparently, is going to end in being forced out.”

But quite frankly, you're full of it. Since when is the voice of We the People considered politics?

That's right, sir. It isn't. Politics is dirty lying scum and you've earned your own reputations. It's We the People who will take it back and try to restore dignity to high office.

Enjoy lunch.

Nice words Unique!

well spoken and to the point! not like my novelettes!

Of those 10 sites, one of them have to work and support the Navy's want.

We need to convince our reps that Virginia wants to assist the Navy in correcting the problem they caused, why do we need to put an OLF in our state when Virginia has offered up all these choices?

It is just amazing....

how all of a sudden there are other suitable sites available.

This is another quote that really torques me

“What’s different is that we’re now doing it in conjunction with elected officials and environmental groups,” Rear Adm. David Anderson, vice commander of the Navy’s Norfolk-based Fleet Forces Command, said Tuesday. “We’re having a more robust dialogue than we have maybe had in the past, earlier on.”

The Virgians are granted the opportunity for robust dialogue where as North Carolinians were subjected to a blitzkrieg.

Well at least we now have John Warner working on our side trying to keep all the jets in Virginia. If he succeeds it will actually be a victory for North Carolina not to have to deal with the pollution, noise and more over development...

It is evident that with every sentence spoken contains the words thirty million dollars...how blantantly obvious the pilots and planes are just superfluous cash cows.

Remember Judge Boyle asking the Navy in court, paraphrased: what and whom are we fighting in this day in time that we need all these airplanes? The Navy lawyer just stood there without an answer.
Judge Boyle: Russia?
Navy: Uh oh yeah, Russia.
Judge Boyle: China?
Navy: Uh oh yeah China.

Superfluous cash cows!

Yes, Susan, Yes

superfluous cash cows. hee.

The Virgians are granted the opportunity for robust dialogue where as North Carolinians were subjected to a blitzkrieg.

Well at least we now have John Warner working on our side trying to keep all the jets in Virginia.

People who have never lived on or near to military installations have no idea the reality of the place - and what lives outside the gate.

But don't take my word for it - ask some of the other vets here. I think all the branches are represented, are they not?

Does money come? Some. Can it leave just as fast? Ha. Ask any town that has been BRAC'd. They'll tell you how fast it can disappear.

Ok, really John Boy

We all knew, when this started the Cherry Point was going to have the rug ripped from under them just as they did in the 1990's.

You just told Liddy that to get her to agree. You just told Liddy that so that she could have something to "show" to her constituents that she had really "done something" for us.

You (John) never really meant for us to have a single plane here, and I wish the Allies for Cherry Point's Tomorrow could see that.

Can I just say

I love the headline on this piece. I dont' like the idea of larger metropolitan areas of NC dumping on our more rural counties...literally or figuratively and I sure as hell don't like the idea of Virginia dumping on my fair state.

Robin Hayes lied. Nobody died, but thousands of folks lost their jobs.



***************************
Vote Democratic! The ass you save may be your own.

The Allies for Cherry Point (ACTS)...

were the first ones to place the noose around our necks.

They knew the jets were a pipe dream but as long as that dream was paying Hugh "Overhaul" BIG BUCKS to try and get the jets at the expense of placing an OLF in Washington Co. everything was on go.

How many times since 2001 have we publicly heard that the jets are designated to be stationed at Cherry Point..?
It has been stated by
Admirals
Liddy
Walter Jones
Senator Warner of VA
Gov. Warner of VA
Gov. Easley
the BRAC commission
on and on and on.....
We have Navy documents stating the jets are slated to be assigned there.
There are also Navy documents saying Cherry Point doesn't actually need an OLF and could handle the extra squadrons.

And now Warner has the power and gall to say:

Warner said it was premature to talk about the future of two squadrons of Navy F/A-18 Super Hornet slated to be based at Cherry Point Marine Corps Air Station in North Carolina. The expected arrival of those squadrons was part of the Navy’s rationale for choosing Washington County, which is about halfway between Oceana and Cherry Point.

This entire debacle is a national disgrace. Sadly what is happening to us is one of many many situations around the country of government’s federal/state/local (i.e. Virginia Beach and Hampton road's encroachment) out of control.

O so true Susan!

This entire debacle is a national disgrace. Sadly what is happening to us is one of many many situations around the country of government’s federal/state/local (i.e. Virginia Beach and Hampton road's encroachment) out of control.

How many establishments are being increased with the "buffer" buzz word. If the government wants something and cannot comeup with a legitimate requirement, then a "buffer" is needed.

Our own GS 114-7 or 104-7 allows for the main military installations to expand at their wim. lagune, elezabeth city coast guard station, cherry point, pope, the airforce base near goldsboro all can expand if the expansion is continious(?) (must contact or touch the base in question). This statute was corrected recently.

The Navy and Virginia allowed this encroachment to happen and the solution is to hamstring and ruin someone elses lives or to ruin the environment because the Navy and Virginia does not have the fortitude to tell folks they should not have been allowed to live there in the first place. The Navy must first and foremost fix the encroachment of Oceana first.

No, the solution is to have the Navy fix the encroachment problems found at Oceana. Darkness is not an issue as the Navy insists that Fentress as well as Oceana will always be doing flights and the light polution at those sites is high. And its been high for many many years. About the same "badness" as when john-boy stole the jets from Cherry Point and North Carolina back in 1995.

Light polution is not a concern.