NCAE flier attacking Moore?

http://projects.newsobserver.com/under_the_dome/ncae_flier_attacks_moore

Thoughts on this?

Just more affirmation for me that Bev is pure politics and no principle.

I'm sure her camp will claim they knew nothing of this though.

Comments

Oh, b###s###.

They arrived at homes this week. You reckon they were thunk up, designed up, ordered up, printed up and mailed out bulk rate -- all just last week?

Sure. Maybe we should elect whoever was in charge of that miraculous feat Gov. Ours would be the most efficient government ever to have existed on the earth ... to date.

"It is amazing what you can accomplish if you do not care who gets the credit." - Harry Truman

"They took all the trees and put them in a tree museum Then they charged the people a dollar 'n a half just to see 'em. Don't it always seem to go that you don't know what you've got till it's gone? They paved paradise and put up a parking lot."

Bullshit.

Negative campaigning is toxic and contagious. It even spills over here, for example, in this bullshit post.

Perdue has already issued a release about this:

“As I did last week, I once again call on all my supporters to refrain from any negative campaigning against Richard Moore.”

Contrast Perdue's email with this from Reiff:

Dear Friend:

Well, that didn't take long.

Just days after Bev Perdue held a press conference announcing her new so-called "positive" campaign, Perdue's closest political allies at the N.C. Association of Educators sent negative mail pieces to retirees across North Carolina. The mail piece is filled with false and misleading attacks on Richard Moore's excellent management of the state retirement funds.

Voters are now seeing the real Bev Perdue—a politician who will say and do anything to get elected, regardless of truth or accuracy. Now Perdue is borrowing a page from George Bush’s political playbook by claiming to run a positive campaign while her allies "Swift Boat" Richard Moore by making absurd claims about his record. Perdue described it best herself in an interview with UNC-TV when she said, "I do really admire someone who can be charming and manipulative at the same time."

That's what Bev Perdue is doing right now – misleading North Carolina voters with a seemingly charming, but obviously manipulative pledge.

My response to the Moore campaign

I'm sick of your bullshit. Please delete me from your mailing list.

Love to all my friends who support Moore, BUT

this Reiff guy is a genuine embarrassment to the NC Democratic party.

Just stop it already, dude. This crap is ugly ... and it is EXACTLY what drives decent well-intentioned young people away from politics. You really need to check yourself.

"It is amazing what you can accomplish if you do not care who gets the credit." - Harry Truman

"They took all the trees and put them in a tree museum Then they charged the people a dollar 'n a half just to see 'em. Don't it always seem to go that you don't know what you've got till it's gone? They paved paradise and put up a parking lot."

Amusing

Almost cute. But the "love to" plus "genuine embarrassment" to me signals "patronizing bitch."

Just stop it already. It's ugly when you don't like the target. If you were not so enchanted with the b.s. Perdue is spinning, you'd hail any assault on that image as the work of a hero.

You really need to check yourself.

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing
-Edmund Burke

Whoa

Jay Rieff ran a great campaign against Rick Santorum but his last Gov. race was Hodges' losing one in SC. I don't think anyone has tapped him on the shoulder and told him this is a primary. I started out favoring Moore but have reeled in that support because of the bizarre negative campaign. At this point I don't know what Richard Moore stands for.

Yo, Bru

I know Leslie H and well...um....she's not patronizing or a bitch. Even if she wanted to be she'd have to try really hard.

Robin Hayes lied. Nobody died, but thousands of folks lost their jobs.



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Vote Democratic! The ass you save may be your own.

Yo Betsy,

I don't disregard your opinion, but nor do I ignore my own instincts. I've been watching and reading, and I say, um . . . well, I stand by my observations.

I'm tired of on one hand denying to my right-wing friends (yes, I have them, and no, they ain't stupid) that a "pc" exists among so-called liberals, and then on the other finding myself in immediate combat with knee-jerk jerks who think that responding to a visceral desire is more important than analysis and perhaps recognition of the range of reasonable positions.

I'm tired of "pc," so very, very tired of having to defend my liberal creds to people who have already assumed a position of such self-righteousness that reasoned exchange is off the table.

I haven't yet encountered a person on this blog whose passion I judge to be greater than mine about fighting for both principle and result, but the truth is that passionate people are a dime a dozen. I'm tired of pretending that passion is a substitute for effective discourse or action.

And I'm tired of humoring the self-indulgent when it comes to asking or answering hard questions about how to proceed.

woah

I think Brunette is comfortable calling other people a bitch because she is comfortable referring to herself as one. Of course me apologizing for her belies the "patronizing" intent of my "genuine embarrassment."

I logged on to give some flowers to Brunette after our lovely date, but now . . .

Without making too much of it, I must say that I'm no longer inclined. Leslie H doesn't deserve the term you used. It came out wrong; if she's offended you ought to apologize.

It's shame too, because I spent the last ten minutes browsing jpgs for just the right blossom. IMG SRC = NULL

As far as PC goes, you know the words you use matter. And in ASCII land it's hard to place the words in a given context, so probably double important to not throw words around harsh words carelessly.

That's not effective discourse, that's a party fowl.

- - - - -
McCain - The Third Bush Term

Surely you meant "foul"

I reckon I could have said "beeotch," to sound affectionate, but no, that's not how I meant it.

I meant it pretty much the way I said it. I'm pretty much as pissed off as the way I sounded. I'm pretty much as offended as my response implied, and I'm sure as hell not inclined to give an apology.

I've given a lot of service to this party; I've paid a big price for my ideals, I still have 'em and I still belong to this party. I still donate to democratic candidates, I still plan to attend democratic functions, and I still plan to fight for the platform. But I'm fed up with taking crap from so-called liberals whose judgmental sanctimony rivals the most nauseauting platitudes from the GOP's far right wing.

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing
-Edmund Burke

right but

if you had done it the other way I could have given you the flowers I googled. I suppose you'll say it's my loss, but you can't know that for sure, because you'll never see them.

How can you be offended because someone else expressed their opinion from their unique perspective? She didn't say anything that belittled the intrinsic dignity of another person. What grounds have you to be offended?

- - - - -
McCain - The Third Bush Term

Ain't gonna do it another way, Jerimee~

Much as I love flowers, and the thought of your googling flowers.

Yes, I'll say it's your loss (not sure why, but you did invite this response).

Actually, Jerimee, despite what I regard as your higher than average acumen, it's not for you to determine what my perception ought to be. You haven't been sitting here at my computer. And if it weren't YOU, btw, I wouldn't have gone so far as to give you three+ paragraphs by way of response.

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing
-Edmund Burke

yeah I meant foul

I did mean foul.

Unless I was doing this whole Marshal McLuhan pun thing comparing the term "bitch" to the term "chicken" which I understand is also a derogatory term for women. But no, actually I just used the wrong spelling.

- - - - -
McCain - The Third Bush Term

Ironic

Casual passer-by here, usually, but I have to tell you that this kind of comment is a deterrent to joining in discussions. The negativity is no fun, and gets everyone all riled up over the exchanges & who called who what name. It derails the original topic and discourages partipation by people who want to talk about the issues. Sound familiar?

Blow it out your ear, Goldie

Ain't makin' no allowances just now for the casual passers-by.

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing
-Edmund Burke

lol

You have made my night. Thanks.

I appreciate that, Goldie

'Cause I was kinda hoping you'd take it that way~

yrs,
(truly)

Brunette

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing
-Edmund Burke

At least you said "ear"

It could have been worse.

lol

lol

oh hush you

That wasn't for you and you don't get to "lol."

Go sit over there.

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing
-Edmund Burke

yes, it could have

but it was you, so I stuck with "ear."

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing
-Edmund Burke

That's special

Feeling the love.

How do you reconcile this:

finding myself in immediate combat with knee-jerk jerks who think that responding to a visceral desire is more important than analysis and perhaps recognition of the range of reasonable positions.

with your frequent and often vitriolic attacks against Perdue? I can go back and grab some quotes if you want, but it appears you've decided being reasonable isn't necessary with her, and any insult or snide comment is just fine by itself without any analysis to back it up.

I haven't yet encountered a person on this blog whose passion I judge to be greater than mine about fighting for both principle and result

And I'm tired of humoring the self-indulgent

I don't even need to comment on the irony of that.

Ya know, Steve

Why don't you go and do that? Why don't you go back and grab all those quotes?

I can just see you sitting there searching or scanning and maybe your eyebrows going up as you find a plum, a little cartoon balloon with the word "AHA" appearing over your head and then maybe leaning forward with more anticipation as you continue the quest.

Put 'em in the little blue boxes. Then why don't you post earnest questions about each one? Don't bother with reading what I've already written about the quotes and the responses that were already engendered -- that would take too long. Or wait, DO that, and then put THOSE quotes in blue boxes and perhaps add earnest challenges to THOSE quotes, too!

Let that occupy a good chunk of your morning.

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing
-Edmund Burke

Talk about negative campaigning!

At least we know why you like Moore. :)

How about this quote:

And my apologies, as well, for over-reacting.

I know that wasn't for me, but please accept my apology as well.

You know it -

And sorry, Steve. I didn't see this until after flipping back to get Betsy's admonition.

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing
-Edmund Burke

So, Brunette

I'm sure you think the above comment of yours is witty, funny and puts Steve in his place. Actually, its just one in a long line of your comments that gets you closer to being relegated to MaxtheDog2 status.

Chill. Now.



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Vote Democratic! The ass you save may be your own.

Relegate away, Betsy

I guess there are worse things than being compared to MaxtheDog2.

And take a page from your own book of advice and back off. Now.

Given your own reactions of late, your instructing anyone to chill is almost amusing. I don't understand why it is important for you to assume the directive posture long after the people involved in a "to-do" have worked it out. It's a little power-trippy.

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing
-Edmund Burke

No....I am posting because someone

pm'd me and another person emailed me asking why you were being given a pass when you attacked other people. It's not power-trippy at all. I was asked to step in and as a moderator I did.

My own reactions? Really? What were those? I'd like for you to outline them for me since I don't recall that I've crossed the line much - if any - at all recently. Don't tell me you don't have time to back up your claim. If you aren't willing to substantiate your claim then don't make it.

I hadn't noticed that you and Steve worked things out. What I'd noticed is that you'd been a complete and utter ass and he had apologized. I guess you consider that "working things out".



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Vote Democratic! The ass you save may be your own.

Ain't gonna go "Grab some quotes"

I'm kind of shocked that you're not already aware of places you seemed a wee (not a wee, actually, but plenty) hyper.

I've also been left wondering sometimes why certain folks seem to "get a pass" and others don't. I just hadn't thought to whine to the moderator about it. But whatever the case, you were still chiming in after it was over and done, which still raises the question of why, which to my mind is answered by your inclination to be power trippy.

So I guess this is an example to me of your being a complete and utter ass (I take it that it's 'ok' to use such terminology with a moderator when she's decided it's consistent with her role to use it herself.) And a "complete and utter ass" is exactly what I thought Steve was being when he chimed in. In other instances where he's done this, you've asked him to butt out. You're pretty inconsistent in your so-called moderating mode.

And here you are also determining whether a thing has been "worked out," despite the fact that apologies went from me to Leslie and from Steve to me and there was no more said about it for hours and hours and hours. You still had to take a bite. That wasn't you moderating; that was you indulging your own desire to nip. If you think this is "moderating," you're kidding yourself.

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing
-Edmund Burke

I don't ask people to butt out when they chime in

but I do ask people to step back when they cross the line. This is an open forum. You may insert yourself into other conversations. You want privacy go to email or pm. You don't mind if other people join in...fine...comment openly.

Do not accuse me of crossing the line if you aren't willing to back it up.

Here's the deal. I call it WHEN I see it. I read every comment around here, but I don't always read them in the moment. When something appears to be ongoing, I will jump in....part of my moderating duties.

I didn't indulge my own desire to nip. I almost commented earlier, but decided to go plant some seeds instead. In other words, I actually resisted the desire to nip. I stepped in b/c another community member asked me to and when I saw your comment to Steve - which you had not apologized for, I decided to comment. I don't care how long it had been since Steve apologized. At the time I started my comment, you hadn't checked the thread to accept his apology.



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Vote Democratic! The ass you save may be your own.

Horsehockey

I call it when I see it, too, Betsy. But for you to pretend that you're moderating at the same time you indulge in the kind of name-calling that you're ostensibly trying to discourage is bogus on its face.

What I've always understood "moderating" to be about is quelling, not muddying troubled waters. Moderators usually attempt to throw sand or water on a fire; it isn't typical of what I've come to associate with "moderating" that a person throws her own handful of gunpowder in. And why would a "moderator" take a gratuitous swipe at another regular blogger who wasn't even involved in the aforementioned trouble in the first place? That was mean, Betsy, and completely unnecessary. Don't try to defend your own hissy fit as "moderating." It wasn't and it isn't.

It's none of your freakin' business whether I apologized to or accepted an apology from Steve. The firing had stopped. We had moved on to discuss an entirely different topic. Obviously we were OK, since this was what we were doing. But you wanted to take your nip, and instead of backing off (which I've never seen you do, no matter how intemperate your own remarks), you try to call it your DUTY as a moderator? HA! And your excuse is that despite the considerable passage of time during which the last words were amiable, and during which Steve and I had moved on to another discussion, is that YOU didn't see me accept his apology? GEEZ what a goddess complex!

Betsy, it just isn't that damned important to me to go dig up quotes from old conversations to establish something that you're going to disagree with anyway. You either saw it at the time or you didn't. If you didn't, nothing I say now is going to change your mind. I was so confused by your mini-tantrums -- and we're talking pretty recently -- that I actually wrote others to ask whether you were ok. But you made it clear then and have made it clear subsequently that you didn't think you had ever crossed the line and that nothing was amiss with you a'tall.

So why would I bother doing the hunt-cut-and-paste-and-quote schtick? Go ahead and decide it was just pure insanity on my part to make such an accusation.

I've at least admitted the multiple times I've crossed the line. I don't LIKE doing that, but I'd rather own up to it than pretend it never happened.

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing
-Edmund Burke

If you want to know whether I'm OK

all you have to do is ask, Brunette.

If it is important enough for you to make accusations, then it should be important enough for you to back them up. That's all.

Robin Hayes lied. Nobody died, but thousands of folks lost their jobs.



***************************
Vote Democratic! The ass you save may be your own.

Betsy does a good job

And you're deliberately trying to bait her. While I might appreciate the philosophical merits of a discussion about what constitutes "crossing the line" and what doesn't, it's clear you're trying to piss Betsy off, as well as other people. How is that useful?

If you actually want to have a conversation, why the insulting tone?

If you actually want to insult people, why should that be allowed?

It's okay to challenge people, but why should challenges need to take the form of an insult?

- - - - -
McCain - The Third Bush Term

The insults

were fair return in kind for the insults the so-called "moderator" offered. That's not baiting, that's reacting in exactly the way that the tone and content of Betsy's missive could have been predicted to trigger. Calling people names in the name of getting people to be civil is not "a good job" at moderating. That's why actual moderators in professional settings don't do it.

You're going to tell me that mine was the only tone in all those exchanges that was insulting?

Given the wide array of personalities and sensibilities we have on this blog, it makes sense that "tone" is going to be a matter of perception that varies. I've seen people react harshly to statements by others that I didn't think were offensive at all, and I've seen people react (in my view "over-react") to comments by others that seemed mild to me or that I thought had been offered tongue-in-cheek.

It seems almost irresistible for people to jump in between others, and I get that, I understand that and I've done that. But to come in long after with gratuitous insults and claim that you're doing so to restore a peace that was already prevailing, and to expect that this form of comment should be regarded with deference is ridiculous and insulting in its own right.

I responded twice to you without insult

Look at my first response to you and look at your reply. I tried to be nice, but you didn't go for that this time. Apparently, I'm just supposed to sit back and take it. I don't think so.



***************************
Vote Democratic! The ass you save may be your own.

You can dish it out ,but no, you can't take it

I get the feeling that you think that anyone has to sit back and take it when *you* throw insults.

You haven't acknowledged a single one of the points I've reiterated here in my objection to your methodology -- the name calling in the cause of establishing civility -- the resurrecting of an issue that all other parties had moved past -- and the gratuitous sniping at a person who blogs here regularly and wasn't even a part of the problem. What was that about? Why take that cheap shot at him? Can you even admit that that wasn't consistent with the goal of "moderating?"

Instead, you attempt to justify by claiming that you started out "nice?" Actually, what you did was weigh in. I'm not quarrelling with that, but I am certainly going to "call bullshit" as some might say, on your pretending that the aforementioned features of your "method" is moderating.

I really think you know better, but what is apparently beyond question now is that you can't admit it.

Go back and read the thread again

First, I didn't ever call you a name. You were the one calling LeslieH a bitch, I said she wasn't and you then called her a jerk. I refrained from responding at that point. Steve made a comment that pointed out your numerous vitriolic comments toward Beverly Perdue. He didn't call you names or otherwise insult you, but you responded with a nasty, sarcastic comment that challenged him to point out your vitriolic comments but offered ridicule for him if he followed through. I still did not call you names when I posted. I pointed out that you probably thought your comment was witty and told you that you were quickly going the way of MaxtheDog2. You call that taking a swipe? What do you think I meant by that? I'd really like to know. You seem to think it's an insult.

Max has been referred to openly here as our crazy uncle. Folks don't always get him and other admins have chimed in trying to describe why he doesn't get called on his wild posts. I believe it was Linda who said something along the lines of his comments are out there, but often have a kernel of wisdom if you look hard enough. All I meant by my comment was that people have to sift through a lot of name-calling, vitriol and nastiness to find your kernel of wisdom.

I did not call you a name. I said that you had acted like an utter ass to Steve, but that is different from directly calling you a bitch or a jerk like you did with Leslie. I was speaking to your actions and not calling you a name. I realize that's a bit technical, but there is a difference. You were acting like an ass. Also, keep in mind that I did not do that until you started insulting me.

If you're going to insult or attack my friends, I will stand up for them. If you are going to insult me, I'm going to stand up for myself.

There, I've answered your questions. Will you back up your baseless accusation?



***************************
Vote Democratic! The ass you save may be your own.

You weren't moderating.

so don't pretend it was moderating. How 'bout that? When I called you on your own b.s., you insisted it was in your role as moderator. But you weren't moderating at all.

And yes, I did think my response to Steve was funny. I still think it's kind of funny.

I haven't made any baseless accusations. And no , it isn't about not having time -- Obviously I have the time. But no, I'm not going to go hunt/cut/paste, either, for reasons I've already told you. It's too silly --- reminds me of the jokeI made about Steve doing it. I can hardly believe you want me to, since all it will achieve is to further more and more useless parrying about how you haven't ever screwed up. And worse, it would involve dragging up other peoples' conversations, which resurrects THOSE issues and is hardly fair to them.

Yet you really *do* want me to dredge 'em up so you can contest them, and what's especially funny about this is that you do so even WHILE you're denying the most recent and explicit examples (in this thread).

To use the terminology you used and the tone you used and yet to pretend you weren't being insulting or name-calling (and that any of it is consistent with a moderator's role) is absurd on its face.

Your tap dance of rationalizations is getting just nutty here. The spin on your swipe at Max is laughable. Hello TONE?

I didn't think I was going to wind up feeling sorry for you, but your inability to admit your own screw ups is pitiful.

Don't pretend you know my intent

You don't know me well enough.

You asked for me to address your concerns and I did. Now you call them rationalizations. Basically you think I'm lying. The sad thing is, Brunette, I don't care what you think. I've responded to you. I should have known that you wouldn't accept my response. You've decided I'm the bad guy and you are obsessing on the definition of moderator. Fortunately, you don't get to tell me how to do what I do. I screw up every now and then and that's probably a good thing. I don't ever want to carry the burden of being perfect. It's obviously driven you to the brink of hysteria. (Now THAT is me being ugly to you....just wanted you to know)

What I said about Max is true. It is what I meant. You don't know me well enough to say otherwise.



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Vote Democratic! The ass you save may be your own.

Finally ~ yes, no, no, yes, no, no and no

A teeny-weeny little slice of an admission there. PROGRESS~

Yes, I do think you're being disingenuous, but no, you're right that no one can actually KNOW what goes on in another person's heart. My preference is to take his/her word for it. Sometimes that's harder to do than other times.

No, I don't think you're a "bad guy," just a stubborn gal. And yes, I think you do care, very much, what I think. That's been made clear.

No, not obsessing on the definition of a moderator. I didn't realize there was any question about what a moderator is; I certainly haven't heard any contradiction of what I offered as my own understanding. I merely pointed out -- several times, since you dodged it so often -- that you said you were acting as a moderator when clearly you were not.

No, wasn't telling you what to do, and no, ain't feeling hysterical. I was pretty angry last night, but this evening I'm just lobbin' your b.s. back to you -- It hasn't been very challenging.

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing
-Edmund Burke

You react as though

I was speaking about someone you care about. In that case, my apologies if I hurt you. But sorry, Bru, no apologies to Mr. Reiff. He gets what he gives. We all get what we give. Fair enough?

"It is amazing what you can accomplish if you do not care who gets the credit." - Harry Truman

"They took all the trees and put them in a tree museum Then they charged the people a dollar 'n a half just to see 'em. Don't it always seem to go that you don't know what you've got till it's gone? They paved paradise and put up a parking lot."

More than fair, Leslie

And my apologies, as well, for over-reacting.

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing
-Edmund Burke

welcome to BlueNC NCDem123

Thank you for your opinion NCDem123. I hope you'll encourage other new bloggers to also contribute to BlueNC.

I think in general we want blog posts to be a bit more thoughtful, but I'd still like to congratulate you on your first post.

- - - - -
McCain - The Third Bush Term

Moore

This clip demonstrates the things I like about Moore. His campaigns youtube has good ones as well. But this demonstrates his business/fiscal sensibilities as well as his progressive values and I really like the way he incorporates these things. But that's just me, I suppose. I think Moore's intellect and ideas far surpass Bev Perdue's copycat policies(I'm talking about all the proposals she has adopted from Moore). I didn't intend for this to get so out of hand here but I have to agree with things Brunette has said in other posts about wanting the "bad eggs" out of the party. Moore is backed strongly by state Sen. Ellie Kinnaird and Rep. Pricey Harrison, who are two legislators I respect highly for their policy stances and ethics. Perdue, on the other hand, hangs with the likes of Basnight, a typical NC good ol' boy. I am not a fan of negative politics necessarily, but I understand that it works. Bev Perdue can have her positive campaign, and if she follows through with it, I will commend her for the effort. Though changing her tactic 3 weeks before the primary, TO ME, seems disengenuous. Even her POSITIVE ad about her role in BRAC was called misleading. Clearly, neither of these candidates is perfect. They are human beings, just like the rest of us. But in this case, I'm taking intellect and honesty over the good ol' boy system that has dominated NC politics for far too long.

Amen

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing
-Edmund Burke

On openness...

Just as a small FYI...

I think I've read comments from people concerned about Moore not being open enough... the N&O wrote an article about how open all the gubernatiorial candidates are...

http://www.newsobserver.com/politics/story/1006542.html

From the article:

RICHARD MOORE, DEMOCRAT: He holds open news conferences, but campaign staff members return most calls.

BEVERLY PERDUE, DEMOCRAT: A spokesman handles media inquiries, and she rarely gives interviews.

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