Clinton health plan may mean tapping pay

when did we become the socialist states of america?

The New York senator has criticized presidential rival Barack Obama for pushing a health plan that would not require universal coverage. Clinton has not always specified the enforcement measures she would embrace, but when pressed on ABC's "This Week," she said: "I think there are a number of mechanisms" that are possible, including "going after people's wages, automatic enrollment."

Clinton said such measures would apply only to workers who can afford health coverage but refuse to buy it, which puts undue pressure on hospitals and emergency rooms. With her proposals for subsidies, she said, "it will be affordable for everyone."

Required? What is that? Going after my wages and she wants to represent me? Not a chance. Who is she to determine what I spend my money on?

Now she is hinting that she will determine that I can afford to pay for my health insurance and mandate that on me. She will now determine that I should pay for health insurance first and then the car I desire. Or worse yet, NOT buy the car I want because she has done my finances and determined that I cannot afford that car but this lesser one. Anyone else see a huge freaking problem with this?

Is she going to mandate people to work so they can pay for their health insurance? If she will not do that, then she needs to get her hands out of my pants. I do not appreciate her groping around my pockets looking for my money. Bill might enjoy it, but I do not.

What is next? Is she going to require everyone to do a budget, submit it to her so she can approve it? Is she going to tell people that they cannot have a cell phone because they must first buy this health insurance of hers? Nope, dont put food on your table, you gotta buy health insurance. Do not buy them jeans, but them off the rack jeans. I am the master of your world. Listen to me, I am the mom of this country......She has grossly overstepped any boundary in a free society.

Hillory, it is time for you to go back to Arkansas or New York or whereever you want to live and leave the rest of us alone.

Does she not realize that this is a country of choices? That government is suppose to be minimal in my life, not telling what to do? Who is she to go into my life and determine how I spend the money I make.

Helping the needy is one thing, telling me how I will live is another. Not on your life will I vote for this.


Wait, don't you have government-subsidized healthcare?

If so, then you "socialist" rant is a little hollow. How about dropping the socialist healthcare and going into the free-market that you extol. Then, a year from now, let's see you come back and make the same argument.

I double-dog, dare you.

One of the pitfalls of childhood is that one doesn't have to understand something to feel it. - Carlos Ruiz Zafon

Jesus Swept ticked me off. Too short. I loved the characters and then POOF it was over.

do not have to

but I take it you like the idea that the prez can dictate to you how you will spend your wages? That you must pay for the collective good of all because you can but the other person might not.

When a government can dictate how you live, that is a problem, don't you think?

My health care is not government subsidized, it is completely government. I spent 22 years paying for it. Just like you have the option if your 35 or younger (40? for the Army?). Your taxes help pay for it. You are helping pay for my health care and I thank you. No, I will not give that up.

I do not have to give up something to be outraged.

I am outraged that she has the desire to tell me and you how we will live. I hope you are also outraged that she thinks she can tell you how to prioritize your expenditures.

You should be enraged that she will force someone to pay for something because she thinks that person can afford it, but she will let others get a service for free. She will not implement this program fairly. That is what I am outraged about.

I am not outraged about health care, I am outraged that she is dipping into pockets because she thinks she can.

Under her leadership, I see her definition of "rich" being lowered to the upper middle class. She will tax the rich anytime she wants. She has already stated that if you make enough to pay for insurance, your going to. That is not the rich, but the none poor. Basically everyone who is trying to make payments on their own now.

People who are working a minimum wage will have to pony up some of those wages to pay for this health care. So now people who where having problems putting food on her table for her kids are going to have health insurance, but the table is not going to have as much on it. Or those that can pay are going to pay even more.

There has to be a better way. I do not know what that way is, but her way is not good.

Do we have a choice, sure. Folks can vote her in. I will not vote for her.

I never agreed to pay for your healthcare.

I do not have to give up something to be outraged.

I don't see why I should pay for your health care just because you were in the army, I didn't make that choice. That is the government taking money out of my paycheck for you, and I have no say in the matter.

One of the pitfalls of childhood is that one doesn't have to understand something to feel it. - Carlos Ruiz Zafon

Jesus Swept ticked me off. Too short. I loved the characters and then POOF it was over.

We've already got government mandated insurance.

Every time you get behind the wheel of your car, think about the premiums you pay in order to have that car legally registered in NC. The reason states mandate auto insurance is for everyone's protection.

Mandated health insurance would be for everyone's protection as well. I don't mind thinking about health insurance in that way - as long as there publicly supported plans with higher income limits and sliding premium scales so that those who are minimally employed can have access to something affordable that will mean they will be able to have a regular doctor, have check-ups, and have true access to the health care they need.

I wouldn't mind paying higher taxes to see this happen. I already pay an obscene amount for my family's insurance, so if having something more Universal and Affordable and Accessible will bring those rates down and still allow the same (or better) coverage, I'm all for it.

Both Clinton and Obama have health proposals. I have not explored the differences between them. Perhaps someone who has can tell us the difference.

And, as Robert points out - it's easy to rant about something that you basically won't have to worry about. Veterans of the US military get more coverage even if they're not employed than most of the women working in child care centers (for instance) will ever see. And it's all government supported. I don't mind my tax dollars helping to pay for your health insurance, Parmea. I just want everyone to get the same deal.

Be the change you wish to see in the world. --Gandhi

Everyone can have the same deal

as I have. Everyone can join and do 20 years. Nothing is stopping them. It is a choice. Some take the challenge, some chose other avenues. All choices are good.

Thank you for helping the government pay for my medical. I felt honored to stand the watch for you and your family. I knew that I was helping people and enabling them to pursue their dreams and choices. I knew people who did not know me were thankful we were out there for em. One of the reasons I stayed in for 22 years, knowing I was helping others.

Obama and Clinton both say that all will be ok when the tax on the rich is removed. There will be enough money to pay. This is not a tax, but insurance for those who do not have insurance.

She envisions that people will stay on their coverage now. That you will stay on your insane payments and that you will not switch over to her plan. Her plan is being sold for those who do not have a plan. She has not calculated when people drop their old plan or when the company stops providing health care coverage and more and more move over to the government plan.

I do not see your costs going down. I might be wrong. I do not see the services going up. If you live in a large city, just think about the lines and services you experience at the DMV or any other government service. Your medical will be similar to that. Small towns this will not apply.

How will research and new procedures be accomplished when a doc in training will have to spend so much of their first years in the government hospitals (like the VA) that the doc will look for other work. Even before Walter Reed, I vowed I would never go into a VA hospital. They are horrible. They get the last of everything. Maybe thanks to Walter Reed, that may have changed, but I am not going to submit myself to that.

What I have not seen from Clinton or Obama's plan is what it is going to cost people. She has not given a price tag for her plan down to the person level.

I question that from her. How will either plan effect Icloud and her family? What will happen to her taxes and her health insurance premiums? Can she move her plan from her current to this new plan? Will the local doc in her community accept this plan? Will Icloud and her family have the same priority as another family who may be under a diffrent program and not under the basic government program? What services will be available? What will happen when she has 3, 4, 5, 6 kids (speculation only!) will these kids be paid for? How will special needs people be taken care of?

Way to many questions and no answers. bush's rich tax cuts cannot possibly pay for all this.

I worry about a sliding scale anything. Under universal care, nothing should be sliding. You need it, you should get it. Fairness must be achieved. My plan should be looked at, the rich's plan should be looked at. Everyone should be at the exact same level, even the senators, congressmen and her. She has a problem, she goes to walter reed and waits in line with the PVC that lost his leg.

With sliding scale, it will be tempting to decide that the elderly do not need or deserve the expenditure for this service. Remember that girl that had the plug pulled on her? This will be happening more under universal care.

As far as mandated car insurance, you actually do not need insurance if you have enough money to pay for the accident if you are at fault. Also, driving a car is a luxury, one does not have to drive a car. Public transportation is available. You do not wish to buy car insurance? do not buy a car. Same with a house. Her plan requires a person to have insurance no matter what their financial situation is. Car insurance and health insurance are not a good parallel.

My wife....

was just reading about Chronic Obstructive Pulmonary Disease (Emphysema). Pretty much the only cause of COPD is smoking. The cost to the United States for COPD each year is $20 BILLION in health care.

Instead of railing about socialism ruining our health care system, how about railing about how tobacco is making health care unafforable? How about suggesting we outlaw a product that costs us 100s of billions in health care costs?

One of the pitfalls of childhood is that one doesn't have to understand something to feel it. - Carlos Ruiz Zafon

Jesus Swept ticked me off. Too short. I loved the characters and then POOF it was over.

To many other programs

are relying on the taxes from smoking to recommend that.

Under universal health care, hillory should state that emphysema is a self inflicted problem and will not be treated under her plan. Just saved $20billion AND still have some revenue for other programs that rely on tobacco taxes. Darwinism will take care of the people who insist on smoking, that or the taxes.

Under this required plan, she should also dictate that we cannot smoke, eat meats, sugars, be over weight, must all excercise etc. Individual rights are not acceptable over the common good of all. Anything that is bad for us, we cannot do as it will cost to much in the universal health care plan. Skiing, skydiving, race car driving, you name it, stop it. All these things in some way are increasing the cost of health care. They should all be lumped into the tobacco column. If you have a stressful job, you have to quit it because of hypertension and heart conditions.

Naaaa, let the tobacco smokers do there thing. Ban smoking in public places because second hand smoke is bad.

Such a bullshit argument.

To compare anything to smoking is complete and utter bullshit.
There were 60 skydiving deaths last year. There are over 18,000 deaths in the United States EACH YEAR due to emphysema, about 90% of which are attributable to smoking.

Your arguments are poor.

I personally think that there should be huge premium deductions for those who are at an appropriate weight and who exercise regularly.

If we get rid of all the dead weight in our health care plan, all those old people on Social Security, all the poor people on Medicaid, all those former military people soaking us. Then, our health care plan would be in good shape. Everyone should pull their own weight, these slackers need to just get a job and take care of themselves.

Welcome to the 10s, the 1910s.
One of the pitfalls of childhood is that one doesn't have to understand something to feel it. - Carlos Ruiz Zafon

Jesus Swept ticked me off. Too short. I loved the characters and then POOF it was over.

Most of the happiest people in the world live

in European socialist countries. In those countries the government has both hands in their citizens' pockets via very high tax rates, and the citizens don't care.

I'd take socialism in small bites (health care) over corporatism anyday.

Person County Democrats

I actively oppose gerrymandering. Do you?

Glad I live

happily in the minority here in the United States. I like our republic. Something about socialism just sits wrong with me. Not sure, but when I want to play pocket pool, I do not want to have to ask the government to unhand me.

Funny thou, my brother lives in Germany. A mildly socialistic country. While the people might not rebel against it, they do not know what they are missing. He sees what they are missing and it drives him crazy. He has never applied for citizenship in Germany. He would rather be an American then a German.

I would also ask what is the price of this tiny bit of socialism called health care before embracing it. You might find it will not do what you want. Hillory has not spelled out her plan but a lot of people are willing to go to it. I do not see how the government will be able to pay for it and increase the number of people enrolled and improve the care and lower the price for people. To much pie in the sky for me.

In a word, Medicaid.

The medicaid model works with much lower overhead than the for profir HMO model. If you haven't seen Moore's Sicko, I would suggest it.

One thing I didn't realize until seeing Sicko was that the whole for profit HMO thing was approved by Nixon.

We spent 2 trillion dollars last year on health care. How much of that was uneccesary? That's the cost I am worried about.

Person County Democrats

I actively oppose gerrymandering. Do you?

And I'd rather be a pinko socialist German.

I've had both systems, and I prefer theirs. As a resident alien (student visa), I paid DM85/mo (yeah, it was a long time ago, pre-Euro). No doctor copay, no medicine copay, my eyeglass lenses were FREE, and there was a DM20 discount on the frames I chose.

Compare that to here in the Great Old US of A, where we pay >300/mo for a 30-yr-old married couple for health insurance, plus another 60 for dental, then the doctor visit copays ($20 each, vision is 40), dental deductible, medicine copays (10/20/35 or cash price, whichever is lower).

Oh no, my taxes may go up by 3%. I don't care, as long as it's less than the $4500+ per annum that we already have to pay out of pocket. Which, on my quick math running 65K @ 27% and 30%, it is. Even if I remember my husband's paycheck, it's still lower than the premiums and copays.

And we're both young and (relatively) healthy. I'm vaguely concerned that if he ever loses his job or his boss stops being able to afford to pay for insurance, it'll be hell to get coverage, because I was on antidepressants for 6 months, and now I'm on thyroid replacement. I could get it through my employer, but it would be $500 per month for both of us and have crappy coverage -- and change every other year when stupid Durham County gets a better rate from a different insurer.

Though I'm hearing that there are rumblings by USA-fans over there that free-market health care is in the future.

Yeah, that'll work.

Oh, and

socialism in Germany is about economics. It's not a totalitarian state like the USSR was. They *elect* a *representative parliament* who enacts laws.

It's a democracy, with political parties and free elections -- which are mandatory and held on Sundays so that all eligible citizens may vote. Employers are legally obligated to give employees time to vote, for the handful of businesses that are open on Sundays (gas stations and restaurants mostly.)

Like so many Americans, you're mixing up socialism the economic model with totalitarianism the government model. Social democracies are possible, and plentiful in Europe, but Europeans believe in the implicit social contract and the importance of taking care of the weaker members of your society, whereas the American dream is to get yours through rugged individualism and a hearty application of bootstrap-pulling, and screw everyone else.

That's why the Socialist Bogeyman is so popular among scaremongers and free-market fundamentalists.

Socialist Religion in Germany?

Like so many Americans, you're mixing up socialism the economic model with totalitarianism the government model. Social democracies are possible, *C. Diane

How do you feel about the German State paying the salaries of Lutheren Pastors and their expenses? Are you aware that Germany still supports a Church-State funded relationship with it's citizens. And why does the German State outlaw or ban the Church of Sciencetology? Is this freedom or a model of German socialism that works the best for so-called totalitarianism religious beliefs?

Church tax pays that.

People who belong to a church pay a church tax, from which the churches get their pay.

Seems fair to me...

Of course, religiosity is much lower than here in the US.

he won't hear what you are saying.

He's got his, so screw everybody else.

One of the pitfalls of childhood is that one doesn't have to understand something to feel it. - Carlos Ruiz Zafon

Jesus Swept ticked me off. Too short. I loved the characters and then POOF it was over.

Parmea listens

I've found him willing to really think things through. The Rs have poured billions into promoting a free-market model that creates profits from misery. Let's not give up making the case to anyone who's willing to engage.


When it comes to his precious land and the OLF he wants all of us to feel like we have a stake in it, he wants us to aid him when it will be of no benefit to us. But, when it comes to health care, screw that, I got mine - every grunt for themselves.

It's hypocrisy at its worse.

One of the pitfalls of childhood is that one doesn't have to understand something to feel it. - Carlos Ruiz Zafon

Jesus Swept ticked me off. Too short. I loved the characters and then POOF it was over.

My land was never threatened by this OLF

however, every child in my county was at risk because the middle school would be impacted. I do not have any children so why should I have bothered to protect kids if your hypocrisy statement was accurate?

You are, in a way impacted, if the government is allowed to condemn properties at their whim without anyone questioning them. We helped set a precedence were people and local communities can question the military and the government to take only when it is a need vice a want.

I came to BlueNC looking for support. Looking for others who would see an injustice happening to North Carolinians and wish to lend their voice. What is wrong with that? Many did lend their voice and hard work and 5 counties have been spared a government program that was not required. I am now helping Gates and Camden County with their fight against the Navy. Under you hypocrisy theory, I would have moved on to other things. Screw Gates and Camden, it is not going to effect my precious land at all is what you implied I would be doing.

My health care is taken care of. I spent 22 years defending this country and defending you Robert. I did not feel it was hypocritical of me to protect you. I felt honored doing it. You may not have asked me, but that is ok, I did it anyways. I was ready to give my life for you. I was in a position were I might have to order others to die for what I felt was correct.

My question about hilory's plan is she has never once shown how it will effect your payments. These plans go after the rich, but when the revenue realized when these tax cuts are removed does not pay for her plan, she is going to come to us, me and you looking for more money. At that time, I will be in a plan that is probably not going to increase, but your plan might be.

I can increase my payments into this system. I have the money to do so. I do not want to. I should not have to. You might have a harder time paying for her plan. I see that for a lot of people. Paying for her plan. If you can pay for her plan, you are going to. If you cannot, you will not be forced to come up with any method of doing so. Someone else will pick up the slack. Robert, by reading your comments across these blogs, you have the method of paying so she is going to be coming after you more and more.

My friend has a little one who is 11. My friend can not afford hillory's plan. Those people who can afford the plan will also be paying for her. I envision more and more people not being able to pay for her plan. Social security was suppose to never run out of money. Will it be there for my friends little one?

Much of my fight with the Navy was about fairness toward people. I live in Perquimans County, the Navy's preferred site was Washington County. If I was as you claim, only for my precious land, I would have fought tooth and nail TO put the OLF in Washington County so my county was spared. I chose to potentially put my county at risk and fight a regional fight to help all 5 counties. If Washington County won their fight, my county was probably 60 40 of getting the OLF. (Perquimans or Bertie County would have been the coin toss, and looking at the two new sites in NC, my county might have been selected). It would have been better for me NOT to assist Washington County.

Pulling together helps all.

Robert, under hilory's plan, how much is your health care going to cost you? What benefits will be covered under her plan? What specifics has she told you? All she has promised you is there will be a universal health care program that will allow access by all. Everyone who she thinks can pay for it, will pay. Where am I wrong with that? Does she have the docs of the country on her side? Does Obama?

Your company might have a health plan, will hillory's plan require your company to keep that plan going regardless of cost to that company? Will your company keep making payments on your behalf into a health care package if they can transfer you and your family over to hillory's plan? That is one of Hillory's assumption with her plan, that those who have a plan will stay in their current plan. Only people who do not have a plan will need to be covered. What will happen to Hillory's plan when companies cannot or do not wish to support health care as a company incentive?

Under Hilory's plan, what is going to be covered for my friends little one that she does not already have under Medicare/Medicaid? Right now, her mom does not pay a dime for that. Her and her mom are the poorest of the poor in this state. I help her and her mom as I can when I can. I insure she is taken care of as best I can. Last year, her mom did not make any money. Not even under the table money. They had zero dollars income before taxes. Not only are you helping pay for my health care, you are paying for their heath care. This is of no benefit to you to pay for their plan.

As for my health care plan, yes, I have a plan. I do not try to rub peoples noises in it. I did work extremely hard for it. I gave 20+ years of my life to claim that plan. It is not a screw you attitude. I am proud of that plan and I am proud I served. I will not let you belittle the time I spent to get that plan with a statement of hypocrisy. I am proud I have that plan.

If you feel I should not have this plan, please write your senators and congressman and demand that people who spend 20+ years defending this country and yourself not have this health care plan. That we are just leeches on society. I'm looking forward to seeing that bill brought to the floor of congress.

When it comes to his precious land and the OLF he wants all of us to feel like we have a stake in it, he wants us to aid him when it will be of no benefit to us.

I am at a lose to discuss this statement.

Don't you get it....

no one offered to pay your health care just because you were in the Army. And, once upon a time you would have had no health care after you got out of the Army. BUT. People fought for you, they fought for your right to have health care, they said that you were valued as a citizen of the United States and that you should be taken care of after you left the service. Those same people, they fought for seniors, saying they were worthwhile. And, they fought for the very poor, saying they should not die just because they were poor, that they should be taken care of instead.

Now, its the working class, which make up most of the uninsured, who are saying, "What about us?" They stood behind you, they pay taxes for you even though none of them alive fought that battle. They pay taxes for the retirees, the poor, the federal employees, the state employees, the local employees, Native Americans, school health programs, University health centers, they pay and they pay and they pay. Up to 50% of all health care, they help pay for. But, they can't afford their own health care.

You admit that you don't know the specifics of HILLARY'S plan (that's how it's spelled), but yet you come out calling it socialism. Oddly, I don't think Hillary calls for the government ownership of hospitals, except your hospitals, the VA, and she doesn't call for doctor's to be government employees, except your doctors, VA doctors. So, actually, if you are so against socialized medicine, we should do away with the only socialized medicine in the United States. The VA.

Lastly, I sent out my letters and emailed people in power I know over the OLF. Because it was right. Sometimes you do what is right for the people, even if it means nothing to you personally, or, and here is the kicker, if it will hurt you - just because it is the right thing to do.

One of the pitfalls of childhood is that one doesn't have to understand something to feel it. - Carlos Ruiz Zafon

Jesus Swept ticked me off. Too short. I loved the characters and then POOF it was over.

As would I

I'm all for stuff that works. The Free Market has screwed up the health care industry so badly in this country that I'm ready to say, well, hell, it can't be worse. And besides, I believe that the purpose of our government is to do the will of its people. Despite loud objections from a vocal minority, I don't believe that there is any logical citizen of this country that would wish to deny health care to someone who needs it.

Be the change you wish to see in the world. --Gandhi

This <i>is</i> BlueNC, right?

Hillory, it is time for you to go back to Arkansas or New York or whereever you want to live and leave the rest of us alone.

And it's probably time for you to head back to RedState or the FreeRepublic.

Where's the specifics

I've seen all kinds of debate on websites about the Obama and Clinton plan, but what I haven't seen are specifics. Naturally, those questions are not asked at the debates. Like, 'did the medical or insurance industry write the plan'? Will we still lose our homes when we can't pay the medical bill? Will there be any regulating the caps on profits to be made by the insurance companies, or will they still be able to pay their execs 'golden parachute' bonuses? In the meantime I can expect some stories on TV about those terrible European socialists continuing to hold onto those family homes for another hundred years.

excellent questions, denno.

I wonder if there's a way to get them answered - in particular "Who wrote the plan?"

Be the change you wish to see in the world. --Gandhi

Krugman has some


This would be the one issue on which I favor H Clinton over Obama.

I share your thoughts on that, I cloud.

But being one who has spent too much time watching our government in action on C-span, I have become maybe too pessimistic. You only have to go back to last Spring, when the FDA bill was going through the Senate, to see the control the insurance and pharmaceutical industry has in our government. I could go into names and all that, but it is simpler to say it is all in the public record, but it was never really reported. They get the 'best persons' in congress that money can buy!

One of the things I don't understand

Is how the mainstream media fails to pick up on these obvious conflicts of interest and doesn't report on it. I think it's up to us - the users of this new media - to go ahead and name names when we've got the data to back it up.

I don't often get to watch C-Span, though I've considered putting a tv in my office for when important bills are being voted on.

And by the way, it's L Cloud - for Linda. Nice to meet you - I'm glad you're part of our neighborhood.

Be the change you wish to see in the world. --Gandhi